Now that we are in the second semester of the 2017-18 school year and yet another ATR incentive has been a failure. The latest published data showed that only 41 ATRs were placed in vacancies, out of 1,202 at the start of the school year. While a few more may have landed permanent positions since December, the percentage of ATRs being offered a vacancy is in the single percentages. The question is with the previous failures of the ATR incentives and the inadequate buyout packages, will the DOE propose another ATR buyout at the end of the school year?
Over the decade, the ATR pool has slowly been drained, from 2,400 at it's peak in 2008 to 1,200 this school year. This draining is due to two primary reasons. The first was that few schools actually closed in the last four years under Mayor Bill de Blasio and second, the average age and experience in the ATR pool is in their 50's and with eighteen years of experience. This places them near retirement age and experience, especially the 25/55 option that many applied for. Therefore, over the years many ATRs retired and few were replaced in the pool. This allowed the DOE and UFT to falsely claim that they were making progress in reducing the ATR pool. The truth is far different.
Sure two ATR buyouts resulted in approximately 220 ATRs who took the bait but almost all of the ATRs were retiring anyway! The only way to really drain the ATR pool would be to eliminate Fair Student Funding and take staff salary considerations out of the hands of the principals. Better, yet bring back the hiring policy that was in existence for decades that gave excessed teachers first dibs on vacancies and allowed for bumping of untenured teachers.
Back to any potential ATR buyout. There could be one since the ATR pool is expected to swell with the closing of 14 schools and the merging of five other schools. Moreover, two large high schools will be sending a significant number of teachers into the ATR pool as they are forced to reapply for their jobs. The last thing the DOE and UFT want is an increase in the ATR pool. A buyout might help eliminate any increase in the ATR pool.
On the other hand, there might not be an ATR buyout since the two previous buyouts failed to significantly reduce the ATR pool. Furthermore, both organizations will not count ATRs in provisional positions as ATRs, even that they will be back into the ATR pool at the end of the school year.
Maybe, if a new contract is hammered out by the end of the school year, a new ATR buyout might be included in it, or maybe not. Only time will tell.
What should a fair buyout be for ATRS?
ReplyDeleteOthers wanted a buyout option for all not just ATRS because of the high frustration level at DOE!
How about a buy out for 20/50 at 40% FAS? I would take it. All the uniformed unions have 20 and out. Why not us?
ReplyDeleteWhat would be a good/legit buyout ? I’ve heard of buyouts but never actually saw one in the last 19 yrs of being in education.
ReplyDeleteIt is no secret and perfectly rational that teachers will not retire unless they can immediately collect their retirement pension upon their retirement.
ReplyDeleteThus, some of those eligible ATR teachers who could retire and immediately collect their retirement pension accepted the ATR buyout. Again, no secret and perfectly rational.
Another retirement buyout will again yield - not surprisingly - some of those teachers who can retire and immediately collect their retirement pension.
A more successful buyout, rationally, will have to include some sort of service credit bump up if it to yield more than the usual small number of ATRs who are eligible to immediately retire and collect their retirement pension.
Don't see a service credit component on the horizon so prepare for a similar ATR buyout offer (with similar results) or none at all.
Ok, lets look at me as an example, mid to late 30's, started working at 22, making over 100k, plus medical, tda, 457B, pension building, sick bank building, social security building. Thats a lot to walk away from for basically nothing. Plus, of course, I would forfeit all remaining retro, which is most of the retro. A fair buyout can be many ways...If the number is 50K like last year, at the very least the retro should be added. Or, how about that plus a small yearly sum, say a couple thousand dollars. Or, how about I start getting whatever my pension would be now...What would that be with 16 years completed with the pre 55 penalty, $15K a year... For the city, isnt that better than paying me 100k a year plus, which will only go up, plus my medial, plus the retro, plus per session, plus a much, much, much bigger pension, plus a larger sick bank, etc......50k alone like last year, is only a few months pay because remember, the next retro payment would be in the fall, so the 50k would be fast forwarded, and I would immediately have to start paying my own medical out of that 50k. Doesnt make sense. 50k, plus the retro, plus a 15k pension starting now is a deal i would consider.
ReplyDeleteChaz you seem to be focused on a "buyout" you go on and on about how bad the last one was and it produced poor results! My question is why did approximately 60 atrs sign up for the so called complaint. The answer is obvious MOST ATRS were bad at they're job and don't have a legal leg to stand on. The incentive shouldn't be "GIVE US MORE" it needs to be as our "toddler in chief" would say "clean the swamp" of dead weight teachers who bring the entire system down!
ReplyDelete8:50
DeleteWhere is the evidence that most ATRs were bad at their job?
Abigail Shure
What will a good buy out look like?
ReplyDeleteThanks Chaz, you are so correct when you state, "the last thing the DOE and the UFT want is more ATRs."
ReplyDeleteI work in a Renewal school and many, including students, are worried that we will soon be closed because the goals set out for us are simply unattainable for our student body. However, if they were to close our school, dozens of others would have to be closed as well, swelling the ATR ranks beyond what is politically acceptable, perhaps beyond the peak of 2,400. If it were to happen,the Wall Street Journal andNY Post would have a field day, and the mayor knows this.
Have gone to sites as an ATR and am amazed at how schools have not been closed while my school did. My school should not have been closed based on what is out there. Unlucky.
DeleteI think many of us will retire this year if given the opportunity. I for one will. The system is completely corrupt. With the UFT gone it may get even worse. They have been a non-entity for so long most people won’t notice for some time, except for the outrageous dues saved. The UFT will reap what it has sowed, as will we. Time to go.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:50
ReplyDeleteYou are truly clueless. The majority of ATRs came from closing schools or reduced programs. The others who had discipline issues were found innocent of the DOE charges and tha's why they were not terminated.
Obviously, you don't know what your talking about.
Chaz, unfortunately 8:50 is drinking the Kool-Aid. Provide ATRS the opportunity to receive real positive professional feedback, not the crap that is fed to an ATR while the UFT sucks on a lolly-pop.
DeleteIf there was a decent buy out I will retire.
ReplyDeleteNegatives of ATR’s
Being called too old to do the job
Being called a substitute teachers and students
You cannot pretend professional developments and meetings
I was at the union When the union workers said ATR’s are ineffective teachers
No place to hang your coats for your possessions.
Etc.
Positives of ATR’s
Writing no the lesson plans
Taking home no work
Etc.
Give me a buyout I will leave. I wanna be treated like a real teacher ,
A real professional.
Better yet put me back in the classroom and I won’t take the buyout.
@chaz - then why only 60 ATR's signed up for the complaint. if they are in the right this is a perfect vehicle to exact justice! your the one who takes bit and pieces of the facts and sews them together to create your "Frankenstein" version of the facts!
ReplyDeleteSo, what you are telling us is there either will or won’t be a buyout
ReplyDelete8:50 is the same asshole from South Bronx’s blog. He was put in his place over there and now he’s trolling here.
ReplyDeleteAsshole indeed.
DeleteAnon 11:26
ReplyDeleteGetting ATRs to contribute $250 for the lawsuit is the issue not the validity of the lawsuit..
PP:
Who knows?
Agreed with 830. how much would the city save if they paid people 15k pension instead of 100k pension every year, forever. If they gave us the same 50k buyout, plus retro plus lets say 15k pension for people who arent yet eligible for retirement...Just kicking us off medical would save them almost the whole cost of the 15k pension, why cant mulgrew negotiate this?
ReplyDelete(Anno 8:38) You claim to be in your mid 30's and are making $100,000 a year? Seems fishy to me. I have my masters plus 30 and am only making %90,000 a year. I have been teaching for the DOE for 18 years.
ReplyDeleteThe UFT had a lawsuit in place which they dropped due to the ATR situation when it was first created. Those in the ATR pool have their own reasons if they want to join in on a lawsuit or not, but 8:50 puts everyone in a one size fits all. As the DOE "cleans the swamp" as 8:50 states, he/she will be swept away one day as well. It is amazing how naive some can be. Everyone is an ATR - it's just a step away. It took a decade before I became one due to school closure, but the way things are going everyone will become an ATR, get discontinued, etc. 8:50 - your day will come. Your ego blinds you and you don't understand the dynamics at play.
ReplyDeleteMany Leadership Principals are fabricating bogus charges on veteran experienced teachers.
DeleteWhy would the city offer a 20 year buyout?
ReplyDeletethey are trying to cut pension costs.
so many would take it that it would cost the city so much that it would not be cost effective. plus then replacing those teachers- even at lower salary and no pension= short term loss for mayor, and by the time the benefit is seen he is out of office, making another mayor look good- anyway we also need state approval as well.
L15, masters plus 30 is 97K salary, before per session. In june, 102k. I said a pension now, a small pension now for people not eligible yet to get a pension. Instead of paying me 100k, they pay me 15k to quit, and not pay my medical.
ReplyDeleteI'll have what he/she is having: 20/50 @40% - this is all I want! My one and only prayer to the universe - would save the city a fortune and save me my sanity. Teachers make the most money those last 5 years --- please someone with a brain and some influence read this. Forget a change.org petition for maternity leave - which I could care less about and I am frankly sick of hearing about --- we need to start a petition on a 20 yr 50 yr @ 40% petition now!!!
ReplyDeletea 20-year buyout would cut pension costs... Cuomo might get it done - no term limits on him and might make him look like a moderate if he could sell it as pension reform.
ReplyDeleteDreaming, maybe .... but it is worth a try.
"On the other hand, there might not be an ATR buyout since the two previous buyouts failed to significantly reduce the ATR pool."
ReplyDeleteSince when has failure ever been an impediment to a renewal of DOE programs?
I’d take the 20/50 at 40% buyout in a heartbeat. Life would be so relaxing . I’d beat most teachers would also .
ReplyDeleteProblem is, that doesnt help someone like me with 16 years.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:50 not only are you not a teacher, you make it even more obvious with your errors in usage and your outlook. You are clueless and ignorant. It's time to stop bullying teachers
ReplyDeleteI'm making big bank doing nada L15 MA+30 and counting the days till the February break. Ka'ching off to Florida. Fat cat retirement here I come. Per session summer school TDA and all the buzzwords. Nice here in my mom's basement chillin' in my undies. ATRs would quit if they had to work. Yesssssssssss
ReplyDeleteI’m 37. I have 13 years in the system. I never want to be a ‘real’ teacher again.
ReplyDeleteI’m only here bc I like the time off. For over 10 years I have hated the job.
I started out in a small school with a vindictive principal who was a used car salesman.
I was the only teacher of my rookie class of 10 who lasted more than 3 years.
GIVE ME 20/50 and I will opt in. That is 13 More years and I will have 25 years. I would retire and sell my house and buy a house and have zero mortgage in a cheaper area.
I would still work.
Long term, this is what the city would want.
Get rid of the rest of tier 4. Then, this system is all year to year teachers.
DoE is not doing a buyout while an upcoming teacher shortage is imminent. Uft
ReplyDeleteThey will continue to push veteran teachers out until chaos start taking over in our schools.
DeleteI'm thinking I should probably get my plus 30 done. Is there a specific place I can go to find out more about this? Like, would I have to take ASPD classes? Would anything from college count towards it?
ReplyDeleteI'm 49 with 12 years in. I plan to go out at 57 to get a full 20 year pension.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how I can survive though. If we could retire at 50 instead of 55 and get at least $1500 per month, I would do it. At even $1200 per month I would consider it.
There is no full pension at 57 with 20 years. You will be penalized and get a reduced pension. You need to wait until your 62.
DeleteThe next 3 years retro are are going to be double last year's amount.
ReplyDeleteLast year I got $2500. This means for the next 3 Octobers I will get 5k deposited in the bank.
That is real money we can do stuff with. Of course, the contract said if you resign or are fired you get nothing. I predict an invigorated misuse of Danielson's over the next year or so to drive us out to save that money.
get ready to get really hard with taxes next year, with no more itemizing, tax code change so you have more take home pay, and that lump sum we are getting. We will owe the feds. Go into ess and increase your federal withholdings to a little more than what they just increased your check by. Least we will break even or get a little back. No more big refund checks.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:19 PM:
ReplyDelete13 years in, with plus 30 puts you at 92k. Add on another 15k in per session. Do the math.
12:35, you hit the nail on the head. 75% of the money owed to teachers starts this fall. There will be more pressure to drive out/fire veteran teachers & ATRs before they can get what is rightfully theirs! More vindictive Administrators, Failed Supervisors, and the Vichy UFT will collude to make things worse for the remaining veteran staffers. Wouldn't surprise me for the city to try to mess with the retro payments for 2019 & 2010 in the new contract. There might be one more incentive to retire this June, but only because the earlier a teacher retires, the less it will cost the city in pension money.
ReplyDeleteBut they cannot continue to harass and discriminate against the most experienced teachers.Field Supervisors like Stark and others should lose their licenceses.
DeleteThe school system sadly to say had really deteriorated , moral is so low
DeleteIf you have your 55/25 and retire 1/1/2019 do you still get all your lump sums and retro money ?
I'm all for a 20/50 deal. Doubtful UFT even cares, but I and many teachers would jump on it. We should have same deal uniformed services get - 20 years in. now is the time to start pushing for it because Cuomo is done being governor and is busy running for 2020 Democratic presidential nomination. He needs our help. Notice he has stopped bashing teachers. It's a win for duh-blazio, City can then stock the schools with Tier 6 newbies.
ReplyDeleteto 9:58 am -- all the information you need for the various differentials are spelled out in the contract.
ReplyDeleteKing colvis, TAKE your 30 and above with KNOWLEDGE DELIVERY SYSTEMS. It's a joke...you can thank me later. The doe classes ( teachers network) are uneducational and irritating.
ReplyDelete@12:15 there are so many assholes in the south bronx how could you tell it is me ?
ReplyDeleteVery easily.
DeleteDon't get your hopes up for a 20/50 pension of 40%.
ReplyDeleteI am retiring with 21 years and with the 62 year old
bump of 10K, and my pension is only 30% of my salary.
Why would they make an offer like that?
What we need is more lawsuits
ReplyDeleteTo 6:47 and others we will never get anything if we don't advocate for ourselves aggressively. Our union once did that. They need to go back to the days of defending the rank and file with extreme prejudice and an aggressive offense - Janus or not. If the Eagles can win the Super Bowl then anything is possible.
ReplyDeleteThe Union knows about this nonsense, they are tolerating age discrimination.
DeleteTo 6:59
ReplyDeleteIf you retire, and are not terminated or do not quit, you will get the retro.
How about this option; offer the ATR teacher a Total Service Credit Year or two! No extra pay, no extra health care coverage.
ReplyDeletei.e. I'm an ATR with 23 years in! I'm only 49. If the DOE/TRS offered simply to credit me two Total Service Credit years, I'd resign with my 25/55 in tact and leave the system for 6 years and simply restart my RETIREMENT process at my 55th birthday. The calculation for the service credit would simply be based on the last 3 years of salary EARNED. (Not boosting it up had I stayed in those last 2 years.) At least this way the ATR pool could be reduced. The system would not need to pay the salaries, and the actual loss in DOE revenue would not raise at all. I'd get to leave under my 25/55 and the DOE has a few less ATR's to deal with???
This is beyond frustrating for everyone involved. I completely see it from the ATR side, but I am a recent graduate with my Master's in School Counseling and it is impossible to find a job with this hiring freeze in the DOE. I even had two separate schools tell me they wanted to hire me but their hands are tied with the freeze. There has to be some sort of a way to hire ATR's while also allowing new hires!! There are so many of us that are graduating with a passion for school counseling and are beyond disappointing that we don't even have a fighting chance. I just wish there was a solution the benefitted both parties.
ReplyDeleteMost atr’s I know are in their situation because they worked at poorly performing schools in poorly performing districts. They are being pushed out by charter schools. Look at District 19, there’s a Charter School on every corner! Nothing to do with being a bad teacher.
ReplyDelete